tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post6124088643791361608..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: Arabic (and Berber?) loanwords in southern ItalyLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-13588069081575361072015-09-10T12:20:17.690+02:002015-09-10T12:20:17.690+02:00This book is now online: http://opar.unior.it/1310...This book is now online: http://opar.unior.it/1310/1/Supplemento_37.pdfLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-69352633030861919622009-03-12T17:58:00.000+01:002009-03-12T17:58:00.000+01:00Yeah, I was considering Ryding's grammar for that,...Yeah, I was considering Ryding's grammar for that, but I'd also like to have something basic on hand. What are the dictionaries that you recommend? If they are published in the ME, I could probably pick one up on my next trip back in Cairo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-28075152352182330362009-03-12T13:49:00.000+01:002009-03-12T13:49:00.000+01:00Rhaeticus: thanks for the comments. I agree, none...Rhaeticus: thanks for the comments. I agree, none of these look like good Berber etymologies.<BR/><BR/>Shaden: I have a couple of such dictionaries, but I'm not sure a list that includes modern linguistic terminology in English and their Arabic equivalent is what you need for that site; it uses quite traditional Arabic grammatical terminology and theory, for which a reasonably old English grammar or textbook of Classical Arabic may be more helpful.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-58869478958354032792009-03-12T11:16:00.000+01:002009-03-12T11:16:00.000+01:00Well, they could have been Arabic loans borrowed t...Well, they could have been Arabic loans borrowed through Berber, though a Berber-influenced Arabic variety seems more likely given that Arabic was actually spoken in Sicily (the supposed ancestor of Maltese).<BR/><BR/>Offtopic: I'm looking for a (re)source that includes modern linguistic terminology in English and their Arabic equivalent; eg. Morpheme = the-Arabic-term. Preferably something along the line of Trask's Dictionary. I'm trying to read texts like <A HREF="http://www.drmosad.com/nho.htm" REL="nofollow">this</A> with more ease.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-61864403394068028722009-03-12T11:08:00.000+01:002009-03-12T11:08:00.000+01:00This is the first time I commment on this blog, so...This is the first time I commment on this blog, so hello everybody!<BR/><BR/>I am actually from the opposite end of Italy and I am only an amateur linguist, so this is neither a native-speaker comment nor an academic opinion, but here it goes:<BR/><BR/>(1) <I>zìmaru</I> from Greek χίμαρος fits with everything I know of Greek borrowings in Southern Italy. This and Cortelazzos/Marcato's opinion are enough to settle the case for me.<BR/><BR/>(2) In the claim about <I>aččáta</I>, <I>-ata</I> is interpreted as the common participial suffix meaning a one-time action; an initial <I>a-</I> in feminine names can never yield conclusive evidence because it merges with the final <I>-a</I> of the articles; this leaves us with <I>one</I> common sound. "Big meal"? No big deal. There is simply no ground for the claim. Usually, <I>-ata</I> doesn't attach itself to foreign borrowings coming out of nowhere, but to recognizable elements already functioning in the language (see for instance one of the given translations: <I>s-corp-acci-ata</I>, "an action which causes your fat body to explode"). If indeed <I>aččáta</I> is to be analyzed as <I>ačč-áta</I> (first impression might be deceiving!), then its first part has been shortened beyond recognition, and nothing more can be said.<BR/><BR/>(3) Latin <I>axilla</I> < <I>*ag-sl-ill-a</I> may be the basis of the Romance words for "armpit", but it is thought to be a diminutive of <I>āla</I> < <I>*ag-sl-a</I> from the same root as <I>agō</I> (in this case, "to push"). Its original meaning (unattested, as far as I know) would then be "little wing" and <I>šẹ́ḍda</I>, certainly not from Italian but possibly directly from Latin, would be a case of conservation of an archaic meaning. This has to be proven, of course, but sounds hundreds of times more probable then the Berber derivation. In addition, while the change <I>ll</I> > <I>̣ḍd</I> is commonplace in the region (dot under <I>̣d</I> means retroflection), I will believe that an Arabic/Berber emphatic can change to a Southern Italian retroflex when I see real evidence.<BR/><BR/>(4) All I can say is that <I>Zaza</I> is also a surname, based around Bari, not far away from Basilicata. Look at <A HREF="http://gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html?cognome=ZAZA&t=cognomi-prov" REL="nofollow">this map</A> and don't be deceived by the many immigrants in Rome, Turin and Milan. One might think that it is related to the Greek surname <BR/>Τζατζάς, but I see some difficulties (e.g. stress position) and I don't really know. In any case, I am always extremely suspicious of claims based on obscure placenames whose origin is really unknown.<BR/><BR/>Serra's is surely a valuable work, but of his four Berber claims, not even one might be correct.Rhaeticushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06569965523533174150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-17176336660369106832009-03-12T01:00:00.000+01:002009-03-12T01:00:00.000+01:00Nice find Bulbul - that looks like a good explanat...Nice find Bulbul - that looks like a good explanation, especially given the location. Aquilina's claims on Berber loans are certainly unreliable; Borg's dictionary of Cypriot Maronite Arabic gives relevant cognates for زنبيل both within Arabic and in other Semitic languages, like Syriac <I>zabbīlā</I> "basket".Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-48177529625411194022009-03-11T22:18:00.000+01:002009-03-11T22:18:00.000+01:00That's funny, according to Aquilina, Maltese zanbi...That's funny, according to Aquilina, Maltese <I>zanbil</I> is a loan from Berber "azenbil". But then again, Aquilina also cites bilħaqq as a loan from Berber :)<BR/>As for 'zembr' etc., Cortelazzo's/Marcato's <I>Dizionario etimologico dei dialetti italiani</I> (p. 476 "zìmbaru") gives an alternative source - Greek 'χίμαρος' = "bocco giovane", <A HREF="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23114044" REL="nofollow">Liddell and Scott</A>'s "he-goat".bulbulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14505565281151328789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-47265135233322118212009-03-11T19:16:00.000+01:002009-03-11T19:16:00.000+01:00The first of the etymologies ("billy-goat") seems ...The first of the etymologies ("billy-goat") seems especially plausible: I am no specialist in Southern Italian dialectology, but I believe that in general, in these dialects, no native word can have an initial voiced sibilant. The shift in species doesn't bother me too greatly: borrowed terms for plants and animals frequently undergo such shifts, and are especially likely to be borrowed.<BR/><BR/>What I wonder is whether the term entered Southern Italian directly from Berber, or whether it entered via Arabic (possibly a now-extinct Berber-influenced variety, unless the word is found in North African varieties of Arabic).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com