tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post7431961452281893335..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: "Taharrush gamea" and the perils of reasoning from lexicon to cultureLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-14711293543379315282016-02-08T13:09:20.894+01:002016-02-08T13:09:20.894+01:00True.True.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-85456924645512607102016-02-02T00:22:20.057+01:002016-02-02T00:22:20.057+01:00Patriarchy is no doubt one unifying connection, bu...Patriarchy is no doubt one unifying connection, but it's not a very informative one, insofar as practically all societies are more or less patriarchal. A more relevant connection, I think, is social breakdown - specifically, the formation of large concentrations of young men with no prospects or social positions. What explanations in terms of culture miss or downplay is the obvious fact that these harassers were revelling in their freedom from the moral and practical constraints imposed by the culture they were raised in and by their parents, as well as by the law. They were, in fact, conspicuously defying the rule of fathers, which seems a rather essential aspect of the notion of "patriarchy".Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-38366649678559566172016-02-01T21:02:41.768+01:002016-02-01T21:02:41.768+01:00They start to look like a systemic problem with th...<i>They start to look like a systemic problem with the unifying connection between all those attacks- Islamic culture.</i><br /><br />I'd rather say the unifying connection is <b>patriarchal</b> culture – even more patriarchal than the West still is, which is why these cases made the news. Being groped at an Oktoberfest, I hear, is not at all unusual.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-15768749370209675032016-01-25T19:36:38.167+01:002016-01-25T19:36:38.167+01:00Anonymous: If you want "answers for why hundr...Anonymous: If you want "answers for why hundreds of men would systemically attack women", try asking the people who did it - unless the German police are spectacularly incompetent, I would hope they'll soon be sitting in jail with plenty of spare time to talk to the sociologists and anthropologists that ought to be turning their attention to the problem. Never having knowingly met anyone who would consider doing such a thing, I'm afraid I can't help you there, though the links I provided might.<br /><br />If, on the other hand, you think you already have the answer to that question, then you aren't paying enough attention. Pakistanis aren't Arabs, and the only common denominator of "Islamic culture" is Islam, a religion which these criminals were openly flouting (the fact that they were drunk should be a clue). A good starting point for answering that question would be to put together a comprehensive list of sexual crimes in recent history involving hundreds of men: such a list would not include Rotherham or Sydney (five and 14 "men", respectively), but would include quite a few cases that you haven't mentioned, such as the crimes of certain <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/21/warcrimes.balkans" rel="nofollow">Serbs in Bosnia</a>, or for that matter <a href="http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/el-salvador-gangs-rape-sexual-violence-femicides" rel="nofollow">local gangs in El Salvador</a>.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-4673545756743563042016-01-25T17:15:43.845+01:002016-01-25T17:15:43.845+01:00I'm sympathetic to causes fighting systemic ra...I'm sympathetic to causes fighting systemic racism in western culture but you need to deal with your bad facts. Head on. Any explanation you're trying to give about this needs to account for the massive rape gangs in England of Pakistani Muslims raping white girls, the Sydney race riots which were started by Lebanese men raping and assaulting white girls (which were ruled hate crimes), as well as the Egypt and German attacks. When someone hears all of that, it's very hard to think of these as isolated events. They start to look like a systemic problem with the unifying connection between all those attacks- Islamic culture. People want answers for why hundreds of men would systemically attack women. Saying that it's not part of Arab culture when the only people who seem to do it are Arabs doesn't make sense. If you want to win, you've got to deal with your bad facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-76349086689333836352016-01-25T09:22:57.363+01:002016-01-25T09:22:57.363+01:00A little tangentially, I found some good efforts t...A little tangentially, I found some good efforts to gather together statistics on the frequency of sexual harassment in general at <a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2016/01/21/tamara-micner/what-happened-in-cologne/#comment-12593" rel="nofollow">this comment at the LRB</a>. As I would have expected based on anecdotal data and news reports, Morocco (in 2011) shows <a href="http://www.hcp.ma/Enquete-nationale-de-la-prevalence-de-la-violence-a-l-egard-des-femmes_a105.html" rel="nofollow">levels comparable to the rest of the world</a>, whereas Egypt (in 2014) shows <a href="http://harassmap.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/287_Summaryreport_eng_low-1.pdf" rel="nofollow">alarmingly high levels way off the charts</a>. But I haven't checked in detail how those figures were gathered, so they too should be treated judiciously.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-29892425477801087222016-01-24T16:03:54.138+01:002016-01-24T16:03:54.138+01:00My German is pretty appalling, as you probably kno...<i>My German is pretty appalling, as you probably know</i><br /><br />I didn't know you spoke any. :-) You have gone pretty far!David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-66001867218478071582016-01-23T20:06:29.481+01:002016-01-23T20:06:29.481+01:00David Gil: Thank you for clarifying your position....David Gil: Thank you for clarifying your position. However, it remains unclear to me why, having read this post, you still remain under the impression that "taharrush gamea" is part of Arab culture in any useful sense of the word "culture".<br /><br />David Marjanović: Thanks for the corrections. My German is pretty appalling, as you probably know - I'd like to do something about that one of these days...Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-29547981443339789932016-01-18T23:26:27.346+01:002016-01-18T23:26:27.346+01:00Extremely interesting. Too bad there's too lit...Extremely interesting. Too bad there's too little of voices like that. They need to be heard!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13293907567001676990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-45139409856149459622016-01-18T22:41:00.606+01:002016-01-18T22:41:00.606+01:00Your translation can be made more precise, but the...Your translation can be made more precise, but the changes are not substantial:<br /><br />Thus/As an example, the Federal Criminal Police Office is in possession of findings stating that a modus operandi is known in Arab countries which is called ... (sexually harrassing people in crowds together). This was reported on by the media e.g. on the occasion of the Egyptian revolution.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-46733162209395117372016-01-18T12:52:00.373+01:002016-01-18T12:52:00.373+01:00Lameen was kind enough to preserve my anonymity wh...Lameen was kind enough to preserve my anonymity when citing "at least one prominent typologist who shall remain nameless followed in the same direction, blithely asserting that "there is nothing racist about saying that taharrush gamea (the Arabic term for the gang sexual assault of women) is an Arab custom, part of Arab culture". Although the comment was made in a non-public facebook post, I have no problem identifying myself as the writer, and defending the quoted comment.<br /><br />The facebook posting focused on the issue of freedom of speech, not on how good or bad Arab culture might be. Please read my above-quoted sentence carefully. It consists of two parts: (1) a presupposition that taharrush gamea is part of Arab culture; and (2) an assertion that to say that taharrush gamea is part of Arab culture is not (necessarily) racist. The focus of the facebook discussion is on item (2), and I stand by what's said there wholeheartedly. As for whether taharrush gamea is indeed part of Arab culture, well that's an empirical question. My impression remains that it is, however, I would be happy to be convinced otherwise, and I commend Lameen for his contribution to the discussion.<br /><br />David GilDavid Gilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-90780355331961153592016-01-18T12:50:10.081+01:002016-01-18T12:50:10.081+01:00You know, it hadn't even occurred to me that p...You know, it hadn't even occurred to me that people might be interpreting "gamea" as "game". Thanks for depressing me even further ;)Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-41268537404008525412016-01-18T11:17:20.326+01:002016-01-18T11:17:20.326+01:00In Italy, where 150 women die every year by the ha...In Italy, where 150 women die every year by the hands of their husband/father/boyfriend etc., taharrush gamea received some interesting translations on "newspapers": muslim rape game, ritual game, white woman harrassment, just to name some.Valenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-73030844057063648522016-01-17T22:48:21.922+01:002016-01-17T22:48:21.922+01:00An even worse aspect of the media coverage of this...An even worse aspect of the media coverage of this phenomenon has been the (likely deliberate) misunderstanding of "gamea" (that same misspelled transcription of the Egyptian pronunciation of جماعي) as the English word "game", resulting in misleading and alarmist coverage of an <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=arab+%22rape+game%22" rel="nofollow">Arab "rape game"</a>.Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03702207795969761295noreply@blogger.com