tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post7898938566412841400..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: How to remember numerals betterLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-28127566710660650982015-06-17T03:44:23.455+02:002015-06-17T03:44:23.455+02:00Rowan's comment is very interesting. There hav...Rowan's comment is very interesting. There have been studies of this kind of "tactile memory", as I remember in relation to keyboard and guitar players. If I can unearth specific references, I'll let you know.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11605675466963686432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-89950770396526337842015-06-16T16:57:40.998+02:002015-06-16T16:57:40.998+02:00Lameen, if you speak any foreign language well (I ...Lameen, if you speak any foreign language well (I don't mean your second language, but a real proper foreign one) then you have used exactly the same "trick" as I do, and the number-memorizers do, which is to slip information which properly belongs in short-term memory into our long-term memory. I remember verbatim whole conversations I had 20 years ago, just because I learnt a new word. It's a curse.<br /><br />You have paper and pencil? Write (column-wise) the word for "book" in all the languages you know, half-know, would like to know, think you ought to know.<br /><br />***********<br /><br />The asterisks represent the pause while you turn over the page, because you've filled it, haven't you?<br /><br />People with different minds from ours can do that with numbers. No, I don't get it either, but hey, whatever...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11605675466963686432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-58498646400846773702015-06-07T20:35:40.520+02:002015-06-07T20:35:40.520+02:00That's a very interesting observation - thanks...That's a very interesting observation - thanks! It makes sense that that should be possible, at least, given that this exploits a different kind of memory, neither phonological nor visual. I don't know of any relevant research, but all anecdotes are gratefully received :) After all, anyone interested in the topic can test for himself whether or not this trick works for him...Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-39553297256250798802015-06-07T18:55:13.971+02:002015-06-07T18:55:13.971+02:00Purely anecdotal of course, but my job requires me...Purely anecdotal of course, but my job requires me to remember long numbers (9 or 10 digits, not phone numbers) and type them in on a phone keypad. I can remember sequences of numbers that I'm typing into the phone pad much more easily than I can remember even shorter sequences of numbers that I would have to write or say (such as unfamiliar street addresses or zip codes). I've used it to help me memorize other number sequences as well, imagining that I'm typing them into a keypad rather than saying them. I doubt this method has much history or research on it though.Rowannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-45269143234228862102015-05-24T15:10:30.026+02:002015-05-24T15:10:30.026+02:00Re-reading our posts, I thought I maybe owed a lit...Re-reading our posts, I thought I maybe owed a little explanation (to anybody who's interested) of my relationship to Darja. On the face of it, it may seem odd that someone with an Algerian partner should be more comfortable speaking Moroccan than Algerian. To start with, his family in Belgium speak exclusively French, even when alone (like all linguists, I'm an incurable "eavesdropper"). His daughter (a school teacher of French!) is the only one who has a good grasp of Fusha, and (my impression) "looks down her nose" at Darja.<br /><br />All that in Brussels, which is chock-full of Moroccans, not Algerians. With regard to the former, it would take a better analyst than I to determine whether they speak Darja heavily interlaced with French (and, bizarrely to my ear, Flemish) expressions, or French with some Darja thrown in.<br /><br />I live now in Tenerife, from where I can hop on a plane and be in Morocco in less than an hour, where people are happy (and relieved) to talk to me in Darja or French, though initially we struggle on both sides with Spanish. Visiting Algeria involves a big rigmarole of visa applications, and (rightly or wrongly) I wouldn't feel safe going there without my friend or a member of his family.<br /><br />Finally, but importantly, as a linguist who wants to "get it right", there are so many more resources available for learning Moroccan Darja than Algerian. I have Norbert Tapiero's "Manuel d'arabe algérien moderne", though I find it hard to believe it was "moderne" even when he wrote it, also "L'Arabe parlé algérien" by Larbi Dziri. Neither really meets my needs: Tewfik's very urban (urbane?) family would be puzzled in any language if I asked them "How is you onion crop growing this year?". Elizabeth Bergman's "Spoken Algerian Arabic" is clearly the result of solid scholarship, but presupposes a familiarity with Fusha that I don't have.<br /><br />All these books are based on dialects which are spoken to the east of Oran (almost all of Algeria is to the east of Oran!). Oran is very close to the Moroccan border, and I have to wonder whether the Moroccan Darja that I already have "under my belt" might not serve me better than struggling to learn how they speak in (e.g.) Alger.<br /><br />Thoughts and advice (from anybody) very welcome.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11605675466963686432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-57204859338907196242015-05-15T19:59:26.800+02:002015-05-15T19:59:26.800+02:00That's a really helpful reply, Lameen. Nisch t...That's a really helpful reply, Lameen. Nisch the ka- and daba, I'll be monitoring myself for that. Of course, I was never contemplating initiating a conversation in Darja in Oran, just responding vaguely intelligently if it came up, and letting people know (as a kind of politeness) that I knew what they were talking about, in case they were tempted to talk behind my back to my face, as it were. Whether, in Morocco, I speak French/Spanish with a smattering of Darja words, or a kind of Arabic liberally sprinkled with French/Spanish words (Maltese?) is a matter for the sociolinguists.<br /><br />On the little island where I was born (Jersey), any "foreigner" who speaks our dialect is regarded with enormous suspicion, and the better s/he speaks it, the greater the distrust. Of course, I could take (short-lived) pride in demonstrating that I speak better Arabic/Darja than my friend, but the Jewish and Christian Scriptures and the Koran all warn us against such a course, as though common sense weren't enough.<br /><br />I might give my "Algerian" a little run-out with my friend's family, but at least publicly, it's better to stick to your "butin de guerre", French. You frighten me a little with your "traditional Algerian social norms". If that refers to forms of address, I'm criticized in Morocco for being "over-polite" (though it's much more complicated than French, I suppose that means roughly "vouvoyer"-ing people whom I ought to "tutoyer"). <br /><br />Here's a little off-off-topic question (but still about pronouns). Mon copain: "Ma soeur et sa copine sont allé au coiffeur et après ILS sont allé à cette bonne pâtisserie..." Pourquoi "ils" non pas "elles". Je t'assure que c'est pas Belge, est-ce que c'est arabe? Sa soeur, toute aussi arabe (mais née en Belgique) l'estime une connerie (I choose the politest word she had to say). I know that many versions of Arabic "collapse" the F and M to a common form in the plural. Is that the answer? My friend does it all the time, and it irritates the hell out of me, and his sister.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11605675466963686432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-83057776720030395332015-05-15T10:01:34.452+02:002015-05-15T10:01:34.452+02:00There is little difference between the Darja of Or...There is little difference between the Darja of Oran and Oujda, of course - avoid ka- and daba and people should barely even be able to tell. Even if they can tell I doubt they'd care, notwithstanding the two governments' best efforts to drive a wedge between their peoples.<br /><br />How people will react to a European semi-speaker of Darja is another question, and one that I can't really help you with. Some people may appreciate it, but it will probably also make some people suspicious of you - this guy knows more Darja than an outsider should, but not enough Darja to be an insider. Context is also important - Darja may be acceptable at a corner shop but unacceptable from a foreigner in an airport or a posh restaurant. And traditional Algerian social norms weigh stronger when speaking Darja than when speaking French; so it helps if you know and respect those. Let me know how your language choices work out.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-45196994116256299502015-05-15T03:55:30.006+02:002015-05-15T03:55:30.006+02:00Sorry to crash in, completely off-topic, but I hav...Sorry to crash in, completely off-topic, but I have to spend two weeks in Oran in July. I can just about get by in Moroccan Darja, but my friend (born in Oran but completely francophone) tells me I should forget that altogether, and just speak French.<br />Real questions coming up: How different can the Darja spoken in Ouijda and Oran really be? As a European, will I be taken REALLY badly in Algeria (Oran) as someone who talks like a Moroccan? Should I take my friend's advice, and stick to French?<br />Sorry if these questions seem trivial, they're (pragmatically) quite important to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11605675466963686432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-86835985805169333582015-05-11T20:11:08.453+02:002015-05-11T20:11:08.453+02:00Fascinating stuff. I had a little song for remembe...Fascinating stuff. I had a little song for remembering my Belgian bank account, but "septante-et-un" was crucial for the rhrythm, and "soixante-onze" would have thrown me absolutely.<br />My magician (I'm sorry, I mean mathematician) friend had a three-digit number of which his bank account was (so he said) the third power. I'm in no position to contradict him.<br />Who knows about any of this stuff?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11605675466963686432noreply@blogger.com