tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post7900000035998466920..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: 18th century Zenaga poetry and language changeLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-89616581873518720902014-03-04T22:38:09.202+01:002014-03-04T22:38:09.202+01:00That shift l > y is normal in some varieties of...That shift l > y is normal in some varieties of Zenaga - other have l > ž instead.<br /><br />It's hard to tell whether Korandjé got all these words from a language similar to Zenaga but a bit closer to Tashelhit, or whether it simply got some words from (something like) Zenaga and others from Tashelhit. Geographically, both seem possible, since Tashelhit is apparently spoken as far east as the Draa valley.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-38742479103905987692014-03-04T22:18:02.770+01:002014-03-04T22:18:02.770+01:00Also the shift L > Y is attested in certain Kab...Also the shift L > Y is attested in certain Kabyle areas (especially in the Upper Agawa region), I am surprised to find it into an old Zenaga poetry. <br /><br />Also Lameen, do you think that Korandje may have borrowed most its words from language similar to Zenaga but somehow closer to Tashelhit ? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-87249865353333347842014-03-04T12:38:48.936+01:002014-03-04T12:38:48.936+01:00I didn't so much mean to find this specific wo...I didn't so much mean to find this specific work in Taine-Cheikh, but I was, doubting, perhaps the etymology of the word.<br /><br />iʔḏ can also come from Berber *-itt, it seems. But really akellitt, of course doesn't really look like much, nor does it yield anything useful in Taine-Cheikh's dictionary. So I think I'll just have to accept the fact that there's a glottal stop in agəllid.PhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-79886180822044501612014-02-28T14:13:41.099+01:002014-02-28T14:13:41.099+01:00The word isn't in Taine-Cheikh, unfortunately ...The word isn't in Taine-Cheikh, unfortunately - it would have been nice to know its plural. If it is directly retained from proto-Berber (rather than being a borrowing with a mysterious extra glottal stop, like "tea"), it also proves once more that - as I've said before - there's no glottal stop transcribed in Numidian.<br /><br />It's written with plain kaf, I think, because the extensive array of extra characters used by this author hadn't been available in the poet's time, and, as he says, the word passed out of usage, so they too had to guess at its pronunciation.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-73561253224032397942014-02-28T13:03:37.433+01:002014-02-28T13:03:37.433+01:00I'm surprised that the word agellid has a glot...I'm surprised that the word agellid has a glottal stop.<br /><br />It would mean the word had four root consonants instead of 4, while I just wrote up a blogpost on plural formations where I want that word to be three consonants!<br /><br />(http://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2014/02/plural-formations-of-proto-berber.html)<br /><br />Of course evidence should always trump my ideas on how Proto-Berber should work... but It's odd.<br /><br />I have some ideas on the origins of iʔḏ, but I don't have Taine-Cheikh's dictionary on my now so I can't really give forms.<br /><br />I'm a little surprised that this word would be written with an initial kaf, while this writer seems to have a pretty developed script to write the different k-like sounds with. Any idea what that is happening?PhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-22005738280761765302014-02-28T08:37:27.492+01:002014-02-28T08:37:27.492+01:00That's an interesting suggestion, but not real...That's an interesting suggestion, but not really plausible. If there were a connection, you would expect the word to end in t, not in d; but even in the pre-Roman Numidian inscriptions, we find it written GLD. Anyway, the first author to claim that Berbers were linked to Philistines (or Canaanites) was Procopius, and it looks very much as if he was just trying to fit them into a Biblical scheme of history; earlier Roman authors had given quite different accounts.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-7323147986976346362014-02-28T00:54:36.356+01:002014-02-28T00:54:36.356+01:00Sorry I can't help deciphering Zenaga but the ...Sorry I can't help deciphering Zenaga but the term "Aguelid" caught my attention. I read an etymology of the term in the book of a 16th century Moroccan chronicler/historian. The author linked it to "Goliath" while arguing that Berbers were Philistines in origin, and therefore still call their kings Goliath/Aguellid. <br />Are you familiar with this etymology? is it plausible? or the term has another origin?Lyamin Benshrifhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870609612391646920noreply@blogger.com