tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post994576662310597516..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: Random Darja notesLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-29342151146884992062015-05-29T19:54:48.638+02:002015-05-29T19:54:48.638+02:00I belatedly realised that ṣəṛwəl صرْول, cypress,...<i>I belatedly realised that ṣəṛwəl صرْول, cypress, is actually from Arabic sarw سرو, with an unexplained extra letter.</i><br /><br />And that, in turn, originates from Persian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-55779516763931119492014-05-13T19:11:02.465+02:002014-05-13T19:11:02.465+02:00Yes, the semantics are puzzling. If məqqaṛ and mă...Yes, the semantics are puzzling. If <i>məqqaṛ</i> and <i>măcar</i> both mean “at least” and both come from Greek, you would expect to find at least some trace of that meaning in Greek from the relevant period. But no. The closest I can come is the (Cretan?) expression “σκιας μαγάρι”, which does indeed mean “at least” ‒ but so does “ σκιας” on its own, so that doesn't help us.<br /><br />The two meanings of <i>μακάρι</i> in Medieval Greek are essentially the same as in the modern language: “even (if/though)” and “I wish”/”if only”. And those are more or less the meanings that are preserved in Western European languages that inherited the word: Italian, Old Spanish and Old Portuguese.<br /><br />But in languages right across the Balkans from Bulgarian to Albanian (though not Slovenian, which has <i>magari</i> from Italian), the word <i>makar/məkar</i> is found with the two meanings “even” and “at least”. As well as somehow acquiring the latter sense, the Balkan cognates have lost (if they ever had) the original Greek meaning of “I wish”. The Persian/Turkish derivation doesn't seem to bring us any closer to the meaning “at least” either.<br /><br />Does <i>məqqaṛ</i> have any other meaning(s) apart from “at least”?<br />Petre Normannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-24236564264784361902014-05-12T18:15:36.275+02:002014-05-12T18:15:36.275+02:00My main problem with the Greek etymology is the se...My main problem with the Greek etymology is the semantics: how do you get from "if only" to "at least"? They're practically opposites. As for Turkish meǧer, it is indeed from Persian magar, but it means, roughly speaking, "contrary to expectations", which is not quite the same thing. Persian magar also means "except", which I suppose is a reasonable source for "if only".<br /><br />So what did μακάρι mean in Byzantine Greek, exactly?Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-75384018136218587242014-05-12T16:16:34.807+02:002014-05-12T16:16:34.807+02:00A Greek derivation of məqqaṛ seems plausible. Rom...A Greek derivation of <i>məqqaṛ</i> seems plausible. Romanian has <i>măcar</i>, with the meanings “at least” and “even if”, generally thought to derive from Byzantine <i>μακάρι</i>. In Modern Greek, “Μακάρι νά' ξερα” means “If only I knew”, so with a meaning similar to Spanish and Andalusi <i>ojalá</i>. An alternative etymology proposed for Romanian is from Persian via Turkish: <i>magar</i> = <i>ma</i> (“not”) + <i>agar</i> (“once”), but this seems a little far-fetched semantically; much more likely that the Turkish is borrowed from the Greek. Old Spanish (from Andalusi?) has <i>maguer</i> in the sense of “even if”/”even though”. Petre Normannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-31033131454627886842014-04-01T17:19:36.884+02:002014-04-01T17:19:36.884+02:00Yet "azefzafi", "zefzaf", etc....Yet "azefzafi", "zefzaf", etc., are <a href="javascript:void(0);" rel="nofollow">Arabic loanwords</a>, aren't they?Anís del morohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234468884505774797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-47323376284541765322014-04-01T14:38:35.268+02:002014-04-01T14:38:35.268+02:00Regarding tribal boundaries: Dellys itself fell ou...Regarding tribal boundaries: Dellys itself fell outside of the tribal system even before the French arrived, but the local linguistic boundary in the region corresponded to the two neighbouring tribes: Beni-Thour to the west speaking Arabic, Beni Slyem to the west speaking Berber, separated by Oued Oubai. The average Dellsi today hardly knows either name, but the linguistic boundary is still in about the same place.<br /><br />One more a- word: azayaT "wind-driven rain".<br />Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-65954193822556855372014-04-01T13:31:51.404+02:002014-04-01T13:31:51.404+02:00The Kutama were concentrated more to the east I th...The Kutama were concentrated more to the east I think, around Jijel. Most of that region speaks Arabic now, but the dialects of eastern coastal Kabylie are still strikingly different from the rest, suggesting that there was originally a linguistic divide between Zwawa and Kutama proper. On the west, the coast is Arabophone as far as Dellys, but the mountains inland are Kabyle-speaking at least up to Ammal, and even in the Blida Atlas a few people still speak Berber. Zenati influence can be discerned as far west as Tizi-Ghennif, and the Blida Atlas dialects are a bewildering mixture of Kabyle and Zenati traits.<br /><br />We call it zefzaf - a nice old word...Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-73074484185488110322014-03-31T23:21:53.080+02:002014-03-31T23:21:53.080+02:00Indeed, we say in Tizi Wezzu both in Darija/Taqbay...Indeed, we say in Tizi Wezzu both in Darija/Taqbaylit meqqar to say at least. Most people think it is borrowed from Tamazight. <br /><br />I don't know whether in Delles you call the cold/icy and wet winter breeze "Azefzafi". It is quite obsolete nowadays, I learnt it lately from old relatives of mine. Burzazennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-36466932994130239972014-03-31T19:25:09.503+02:002014-03-31T19:25:09.503+02:00Thanks Lameen, having the Jbala/Rif languages shif...Thanks Lameen, having the Jbala/Rif languages shift in Morocco, the border is normally a river or a mountain and happens acc to tribal territory. I didn't realise it was this cosmopolitan, maybe infulence from close Algiers. <br /><br />I'm interested in determining the original extent of Kabylie, which I gather are the Kutama in Arabic sources. Acc to Ibn Khaldun Setif and constantine are Kabyle too—although apparently not Ktama or some southern branch of Ktama—who shifted to Arabic after the fall of the Fatimids. Still acc to Ibn Khaldun, they'd later deny this origin to avoid blame for having shifted to Shiism. Perhaps in the context of religious reformism brought about by Almoravids/AlmohadsLyamin Benshrifhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870609612391646920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-26928951770326747412014-03-31T11:05:05.450+02:002014-03-31T11:05:05.450+02:00Thanks for the comments - I'd never have guess...Thanks for the comments - I'd never have guessed merguez was Andalusi too! Root extensions are also a thorny problem in Berber...<br /><br />Dellys was administratively part of Kabylie during and immediately after French rule, but even in 1844 its inhabitants spoke Arabic. Of course many or most are ultimately of Kabyle origin, but there are also Andalusi and Turkish families and immigrants from further west. Not far east or south, though, the villages speak Kabyle.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-30798749226432150892014-03-30T21:58:19.650+02:002014-03-30T21:58:19.650+02:00I thought Dellys was part of Kabylie...Apparently ...I thought Dellys was part of Kabylie...Apparently not. So where is exactly the Kabyle western border ? And because of geo proximity aren't many of people there are Kabyle in origin?Lyamin Benshrifhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870609612391646920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-21662690875961680872014-03-29T18:45:20.525+01:002014-03-29T18:45:20.525+01:00It seems Björkman was rather misguided when he sai...It seems Björkman was rather misguided when he said that "sarwal or serwel or serwil for «cypress» is formed from the well-known word sarw with the article after it" (EI, s.v. 'sirwal').Anís del morohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234468884505774797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-15273687665510106392014-03-29T18:33:10.668+01:002014-03-29T18:33:10.668+01:00Extra -əl in صرول might relate to Romance diminuti...Extra -əl in صرول might relate to Romance diminutive suffix -el, "characteristic of tree nouns" (on this see Corriente, A Dictionary of Andalusi Arabic, 1997, p. 250).Anís del morohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234468884505774797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-2347701313316727322014-03-29T17:02:52.344+01:002014-03-29T17:02:52.344+01:00Where extra letters like these come from is one of...<i>Where extra letters like these come from is one of the great mysteries of Semitic, frequently discussed but never really explained.</i><br /><br />Oh, not just Semitic: they're suspiciously similar to the phenomenon of "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_root#Root_extensions" rel="nofollow">root extensions</a>" in Indo-European.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-46817064258949916582014-03-29T15:53:46.800+01:002014-03-29T15:53:46.800+01:00Actually مرڤاز happens to be Andalusi (cf. Vocabul...Actually مرڤاز happens to be Andalusi (cf. Vocabulista in arabico, <a href="https://archive.org/stream/vocabulistainara00bibluoft#page/461/mode/1up" rel="nofollow">p. 461</a>, s.v. 'longaniza': ). Concerning مقّار it is rather strange that Corriente did not consider <a href="http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.6:1:6135.steingass" rel="nofollow">Persian</a> مگر (however cf. Italian 'magari', Spanish 'maguer').Anís del morohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234468884505774797noreply@blogger.com