tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post575556265643682077..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: Berber and not so Berber words in Tunisian ArabicLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-60000715875961679702017-10-15T18:20:35.945+02:002017-10-15T18:20:35.945+02:00AB good point about diminutives. It can happen tha...AB good point about diminutives. It can happen that words that look (morphologically) like diminutives are actually (semantically) augmentatives.<br /><br />More generally "etymology needs to be done properly" is a slogan I would have branded, or at least tattooed on every linguistic student. If anyone was thinking of specializing in Balkan historical linguistics, please don't, if you wish to preserve your sanity: it's a never-ending hellish game of "pass the parcel" combined with "musical chairs".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09752842202640586894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-38747122963330065082017-09-20T13:19:33.009+02:002017-09-20T13:19:33.009+02:00I suppose it has to do with how diminutives are us...I suppose it has to do with how diminutives are used, in some places at least as forms of endearment so that words like šabbūb and ḥabbūb are more endearing (or expressive, if you will) forms of šābb "guy" and ḥabīb "dear". But perhaps those are not diminutives, which is what I originally thought, but a more general form of expression or endearment. More name examples are coming to mind (addūm), but they are used in the same way as actual diminutives of names: ržūba < ražab, ḥmayda < ḥamad or muḥammad, etc (not all names of course have this CǝCCVC form, *ražžūb).ABnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-66335431682190990982017-09-20T12:39:48.307+02:002017-09-20T12:39:48.307+02:00I don't see anything particularly diminutive a...I don't see anything particularly diminutive about the semantics of CəCCuC - a /xənnufa/ needn't be any smaller than a /nif/, and /ħəmmud/ is if anything more likely to refer to an adult than to a kid. But I'm open to persuasion if you have examples. What does šabbūb mean?Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-50819774116930289912017-09-20T12:25:13.646+02:002017-09-20T12:25:13.646+02:00Thanks for your thoughts.
Phoenix: the first two e...Thanks for your thoughts.<br />Phoenix: the first two examples you give certainly fit the pattern XǝCCVC; the final one is unclear-what would it be the expressive formation of? <br />Lameen: isn't the pattern CǝCCVC a diminutive pattern, or at least is as modification of a diminutive pattern (e.g. šābb > šabbūb) as in the ḥmiṭǝr example.ABnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-22204924972845648522017-09-20T10:15:06.845+02:002017-09-20T10:15:06.845+02:00AB: You're right to highlight this as problema...AB: You're right to highlight this as problematic; I don't think we fully understand the phenomenon of expressive formations yet (at least I certainly don't). In this specific case, the template CəCCuC is particularly common in Maghrebi Arabic for such formations (look at /qədduṛ/ from Abdelkader, or /ħəmmud/ from Ahmed), and that gives us /'əbbuṭ/. It's not obvious where the /ḍ/ came from, but expressive formations do tend to get these extra consonants; compare Dellys Arabic /ḥmiṭəṛ/ "little donkey" instead of expected */ḥmiyyəṛ/.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-28464608957022350592017-09-20T09:37:56.212+02:002017-09-20T09:37:56.212+02:00AB: Well expressive formations, at least in Berber...AB: Well expressive formations, at least in Berber, and it seems by extension North-African Arabic are not completely "random". The pattern can be summed up as: XəCCVC where X is an 'exotic' consonant, and V stands for a plain vowel. But yes there is not one clear way to create an expressive formation. But expressive formations are real, and rather common in Berber. Some common examples from Berber:<br /><br />Kb. abuḍ ‘navel’, expressive: aεəbbuḍ ‘belly’<br />Tamazight tadist ‘belly’, expressive: aεəddas, aεəddis ‘id.’<br />Kb. ašəlbuḍ ‘blister’<br />Tashl. ašrwiḍ ‘rag’<br />MA aεəlluš ‘lamb’, Men. tɣallaš ‘ewe’, Kb. aqəlwaš ‘billy-goat’PhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-10228881572366721962017-09-19T21:57:36.991+02:002017-09-19T21:57:36.991+02:00I'm not sure I quite understand how ḍabbūṭ is ...I'm not sure I quite understand how ḍabbūṭ is an expressive formation from 'ibṭ. Does that mean it is essentially a random derivation (i.e. there is no specific "expressive" morpheme or pattern).ABnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-1717859340681926232017-09-18T20:31:22.674+02:002017-09-18T20:31:22.674+02:00Thanks for your reply.
لياس is used in Moroccan A...Thanks for your reply. <br />لياس is used in Moroccan Arabic. قطع لياس: to give up. I don't think إلاس :chedda above ll (like تيلاس).<br />The vowel pattern could be explained by the fact that Arabic didn't borrow to current Berber but to older varieties. Actually, it reminds me tislit (Taqvaylit, Tamazight) versus taslit elsewhere Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08859007419064079763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-75419567843383987542017-09-18T20:29:02.056+02:002017-09-18T20:29:02.056+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08859007419064079763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-13086146036906084532017-09-18T10:26:34.530+02:002017-09-18T10:26:34.530+02:00Thanks for the comments, everyone!
Abu Ilyás: I h...Thanks for the comments, everyone!<br /><br />Abu Ilyás: I hadn't noticed Corriente's solution, but now I see it, I find it rather appealing, though not quite certain.<br /><br />Imed: There is a possible piece of corroborating evidence for that hypothesis from Kabyle: <i>akurbuz</i> "unripe figs" (Dallet). In light of that form, we might suppose that the pan-Maghrebi form <i>kəṛmus</i> got reshaped under the influence of <i>kəṛma</i> through folk etymology, and was originally <i>kəṛbus</i>. But I'd be happier if forms with a <i>b</i> turned up in more than one place.<br /><br />Opoudjis: I'm afraid the allusion went over my head!<br /><br />Hamza: That's an interesting suggestion, but I don't see how to get the vowel pattern of <i>təllis</i> from the Berber forms; the Greek etymology seems more appealing. As for <i>lhemm ou illass</i>, I wonder if the second word isn't derived from اليأس.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-69825339248446363732017-09-16T23:14:47.604+02:002017-09-16T23:14:47.604+02:00Thanks for the post.
I think there are two words ...Thanks for the post. <br />I think there are two words that shouldn't be mixed up : tellis (kind of rug or even cloth bag, word indeed Latine) and bu-tellis (monster). <br />I will assume the latter comes from the pan-berber root "WLS" (darkness). In Tamazight, "tillass" beyond its first meaning, also refers to "lies/ fake tales", which is very close to the meaning of "bou-tellis". <br />I would like to add that "bou-tellis" means in Morocco (espacially in the countryside) a disease that leads to loss of sight (« affection de la vue qui rend la vision presque nulle après le coucher du soleil ») Dictionnaire arabe - français (de culture et langue marocaines) De Prémare, Tome 6, p156. / it can refer to a nightmare as we can hear it there : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c7lHCPBkD8 (10:10). Therefore, the tunisian (and Fassi : De Prémare, ibid) meaning of "monster / nightmare" is very likely to be a Berberism: <br />Darkness > loss of sight > monster, nightmare. <br /><br />Some tribes around Casablanca still use the verb "telless" (make it dark). Darkness in all jbala's varieties is "asalass" (the factitif of WLS (S+WLS) ; in all berbers dialects, "sulles" means "make it dark", e.g in Tamazight: isulless l-hal (it's getting dark) vs "iffu-d lhal" (it's getting light). In Sefrou (about 35km south of Fès) where was spoken (and is still spoken by elder people) a variety of "Prehilali Arabic", we find the expression "lhemm ou illass"! (i.e Damn!). Lhemm : worry / illass seems to have lost it's first acceptation but according to the context, it very likely refers to darkness, nightmare etc...Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08859007419064079763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-35191563396078707282017-09-16T23:05:15.344+02:002017-09-16T23:05:15.344+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08859007419064079763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-87695980461977257742017-09-16T15:14:03.707+02:002017-09-16T15:14:03.707+02:00Imed: Of course, they are not the same, but, since...Imed: Of course, they are not the same, but, since تليس means a large sack too (cf. <a href="https://sizes.com/units/thallion.htm" rel="nofollow">Coptic "thallis"</a>), the figure of بوشكارة (or أبو كيس in the Middle East) might have helped ἐφιάλτης (sleep paralysis) be analyzed as أبو تليس.Anís del morohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234468884505774797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-30971179856886118082017-09-16T02:38:32.342+02:002017-09-16T02:38:32.342+02:00Etymologies. They're what you look for on the ...Etymologies. They're what you look for on the Tiber, not the Ganges...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-76613035071705717412017-09-16T01:43:30.186+02:002017-09-16T01:43:30.186+02:00Bechir Lamine suggests the word καρπός as an etymo...<a href="http://qamus-tunsi.blogspot.com/2016/06/blog-post_22.html" rel="nofollow">Bechir Lamine</a> suggests the word <i>καρπός</i> as an etymon for <i>kǝṛmuṣ</i><br /><br />Abu Ilyás: Sack Man is actually <i>bu-škaṛa</i> (a man who takes naughty children in the afternoon). It's very different from bu-tǝllis, the monster/jǝnn who paralyzes you during sleep.Imed Adelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13965815397499206430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-17569864103316273502017-09-15T19:50:15.022+02:002017-09-15T19:50:15.022+02:00According to F. Corriente (A Dictionary of Andalus...According to F. Corriente (<a href="https://books.google.es/books?id=D2H8kOFNJbgC&pg=PA80&dq=tillis+corriente&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjh5N_a3KfWAhXqKsAKHUFOBpAQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=tillis%20corriente&f=false" rel="nofollow">A Dictionary of Andalusi Arabic, 1997, p. 80</a>), "bu-telli:s" would rather be a folk etymology for Greek ἐφιάλτης (nightmare, phantom). <br /><br />I wonder whether this "one with the basket" (or "the blanket") relates to the figure of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_Man" rel="nofollow">the Sack Man</a>.Anís del morohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234468884505774797noreply@blogger.com