tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post59191154350728830..comments2024-03-23T01:31:13.502+01:00Comments on Jabal al-Lughat: Comparative Siouan DictionaryLameen Souag الأمين سواقhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-66083120475889105652018-06-15T05:16:27.180+02:002018-06-15T05:16:27.180+02:00Hey Kris - reach me at shigley@gmail.com
I can gi...Hey Kris - reach me at shigley@gmail.com<br /><br />I can give you Yuchi/Hocąk (Ho-Chunk) correlations for starters if you like :)<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Sheila ShigleySheila Shigleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07534768214442164058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-7568896130810041582018-04-15T22:24:27.272+02:002018-04-15T22:24:27.272+02:00Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm work...Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm working on a research paper for Macro-Siouan and was wondering if Guillaume could please provide either the list of 30 or so cognates or the number of them that are from Swadesh 200 or 100 lists. I'm trying to calculate time depth, but the literature on Yuchi is sparse.<br /><br />Thanks to all for the useful links, and sorry again for intruding.<br /><br />-KrisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16797485426592530363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-27791250432481497892015-07-03T22:39:09.964+02:002015-07-03T22:39:09.964+02:00Guillaume-
I will second Lameen here: By all mean...Guillaume-<br /><br />I will second Lameen here: By all means DO present us with those 30 Yuchi-Siouan cognates! Etiennenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-11464874856585225792015-07-01T17:57:18.064+02:002015-07-01T17:57:18.064+02:00Guillaume,
"For me, even if cognates are a bi...Guillaume,<br />"For me, even if cognates are a bit hard to find (I collected about 30 of them, maybe I will post later about that on Panchronica), this is sufficient evidence for postulating a genetic relationship between the two."<br /><br />Particularly if those cognates are between Yuchi and the proto-language rather than just with Catawba or Tutelo and Saponi. If those areal contacts don't explain those cognates, then there has to be a historical explanation.<br /><br />And if you can show these to be real cognates at the proto level, the time will finally be ripe for a real comparison with proto-Iroquoian and proto-Caddoan, for a determination one way or the other on that old proposal.<br /><br />"If Rankin is right about Catawba and Siouan, we wouldn't expect to find many such bound cognates just because proto-Siouan-Catawban was relatively isolating, and this typological fact should not affect our judgement of relatedness."<br /><br />The same problem has plagued Sino-Tibetan studies, along with some really extensive sound changes across the entire family.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-6960122207670163522015-06-26T12:13:54.190+02:002015-06-26T12:13:54.190+02:00Interesting observation Guillaume, and thanks for ...Interesting observation Guillaume, and thanks for the links! I hope you do end up posting some more about this...Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-8930576771540485392015-06-23T19:10:03.502+02:002015-06-23T19:10:03.502+02:00Concerning historical Siouan linguistics, I take t...Concerning historical Siouan linguistics, I take the opportunity to mention this paper of mine, to appear in IJAL:<br />https://www.academia.edu/12796953/On_the_directionality_of_analogy_in_a_Dhegiha_paradigmGuillaume Jacqueshttp://panchr.hypotheses.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-43671869912977031012015-06-23T19:05:23.390+02:002015-06-23T19:05:23.390+02:00Yuchi-Siouan comparison is a topic of great intere...Yuchi-Siouan comparison is a topic of great interest to me; unfortunately, the limited documentation of Yuchi makes it difficult to do much research, we would need to have someone prepare a glossary from Wagner's texts, at least to go any further. In an unpublished paper:<br />https://www.academia.edu/3758247/Siouan_irregular_inflections<br />on ft 8, page 17, I discuss some Yuchi-Siouan comparisons. It is especially interesting to notice that Yuchi and Siouan share at least one irregular verb with a common irregularity. For me, even if cognates are a bit hard to find (I collected about 30 of them, maybe I will post later about that on Panchronica), this is sufficient evidence for postulating a genetic relationship between the two.Guillaume Jacqueshttp://panchr.hypotheses.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-57000385846324768962015-06-23T09:03:47.269+02:002015-06-23T09:03:47.269+02:00I thought Rankin's paper was a very good expla...I thought Rankin's paper was a very good explanation of why typological differences would make it unfair to compare grammatical closeness across such typologically different cases. For Semitic and Berber, we can immediately see a lot of bound cognates: feminine singular marker for nominals, and aspect marking and most of the subject agreement paradigm for verbs. If Rankin is right about Catawba and Siouan, we wouldn't expect to find many such bound cognates just because proto-Siouan-Catawban was relatively isolating, and this typological fact should not affect our judgement of relatedness. (And yet despite this, apparently by parallel grammaticalisation, we do seem to have the noun prefix he alludes to and the instrumental prefixes on the verbs...)<br /><br />Even 10% is on the high end for Afroasiatic, though that does bring it a bit closer.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-14473399779013604362015-06-23T04:49:12.306+02:002015-06-23T04:49:12.306+02:00I looked at the 56 Proto-Siouan-Catawba entries in...I looked at the 56 Proto-Siouan-Catawba entries in the dictionaries. The overlap with Grimm's list only covers 8 items (blood, cut, give, liver, that, thou, three, two). Other Swadesh 200 list items reconstructed for PSC are father ('vocative' /tá:ti/, ignored), flesh/meat, foot (instrumental, ignored), good, hand (instrumental, ignored), long, one, swim, road, rock/stone, sit, sleep, tree, walk, water, yellow. The total is 21, or 10.5% of the Swadesh 200.Ynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-3765116636757033952015-06-23T03:11:51.810+02:002015-06-23T03:11:51.810+02:00I can't tell if Grimm is relying on known soun...I can't tell if Grimm is relying on known sound-laws to judge relatedness. His use of historically attested languages rather than reconstructions is not ideal, especially in a language family with so much phonological restructuring.<br /><br />What I meant was, based on Rankin's paper alone, what's your impression of the grammatical closeness between Catawba and Siouan, as compared to that of e.g. Semitic and Berber?Ynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-46445093124440836022015-06-22T23:59:23.768+02:002015-06-22T23:59:23.768+02:00Much closer than any two branches of Afroasiatic, ...Much closer than any two branches of Afroasiatic, I would say. I mean, Grimm 1987 gives something like 15% plausible cognates on the Swadesh 200 word list, pairwise between Catawba and individual Siouan languages. I wouldn't expect that high that between any two branches of Afroasiatic. Of course, for Afroasiatic we also have the advantage of some millennia-old attest actions, which shortens the path a bit.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13177437.post-79919058974446431222015-06-22T21:10:36.415+02:002015-06-22T21:10:36.415+02:00This paper, by Rankin, shows some of the difficult...<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150421130102/http://elanguage.net/journals/bls/article/download/3193/3174" rel="nofollow">This paper</a>, by Rankin, shows some of the difficulties in relating Proto-Siouan and Catawba. Would you say the two are relatable about as much as any two branches of Afro-Asiatic?Ynoreply@blogger.com